Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

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Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Wed May 19, 2010 8:48 pm

Hi All,

I'm about to see how far I can push this little card now that we have the faster N version. I will document my journey here so others can learn from my mistakes. Our biggest challenge as sports photographers is the action photography. At tournaments, getting the images into the parents hands before they leave. It's an impulse purchase. I am going to test this starting with a small baseball tournament and see what kind of range I can get out of these cards. Attached you will see the layout of the baseball feilds. Pretty compact. No more than 200ft to any area that a photographer might be "roaming". I have purchased a 2.4 GHz 9dBi Hi Gain Antenna along with a Linksys Wireless N Router (model WRT160NL) 300 Mbps. The PC will be set up in the middle of the fields (represented by the green H dot) The antenna will go at the top of the building (it's 2 story and the PC will be set up right in side on the 2nd floor). My hunch is I don't need near this much power, but wanted to test for larger events. We will roam farther out from the fields to see what kind of range we can get. Keep you posted!


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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Thu May 20, 2010 4:16 pm

OK, great stuff. Here are a few tips. At Eye-Fi, I'm probably the one with the most experience shooting events and live shows, so hopefully this will help you:

* I've had tremendous luck with either a Linksys WRT-54GL router, or a Linksys WRT-320N router. But the set-ups are different:

With the 54GL, which is a g router:
* swap the small antennas with the "2.4 GHz 9 dBi Rubber Duck Antenna - RP-TNC Plug Connector" antennas:
http://www.l-com.com/item.aspx?id=22068
* These antennas make a huge difference, and have a really nice doughnut shape coverage, but THEY HAVE TO BE AT THE SAME LEVEL as your shooters. Do not place them 2 stories above the shooters. That's one of the main problems that you're running into.
* flash DD-WRT onto the 54GL router. It's a free OS (but you can donate), and will make your 54GL router do things that usually cost thousands of dollars in enterprise-level routers. For example, you can use WDS, and bridge several routers into 1 network, you can start QoS, you can boost the power on the radio, etc...
* If you're getting the 54GL, the 2 main reasons for getting it would be to flash it with DD-WRT, and to connect the 2 9dBi antennas
* once you have DD-WRT, boost the radio power from the default setting to, say 120mW. Don't go crazy, but 120mW will give you a nice power boost, to the default setting.

With the 320N router, which is an N router:
* I would still highly recommend flashing it with DD-WRT, but you don't have to. N, by nature, helps with the range, so by simply getting this router, over a cheap g router, you'll see gains in coverage and distance.
* I used the stock power setting in DD-WRT, which was 71mW, and in a very wi-fi noisy tradeshow, got about 250 feet of range, with the Pro X2 in my Nikon D300s.
* The 320N does not have connectors for external antennas, but you would be impressed with how much range you get out of that unit. FYI, we use that unit as our corp router, at Eye-Fi.

Something else that you can do, is to use WDS, and bridge several routers into one network. If you do that, I highly recommend setting up several SSID's, and not using the same SSID for all routers. Then, add all of those SSID's to the Eye-Fi Cards, so that they could "roam" among the routers. BUT, and there is a big BUT -- if you use WDS, you will get increased range, and much reduced bandwidth. Every router that you add to a WDS network, divides the total throughput of the network by 2. So if you have 4 routers, and lets say that you did this on a g network, you would be in the low 10's of max throughput, and if you have several shooters that are streaming images, at the same time, they will be bottleneck'd by your WDS network.

So the best thing to do, for your first experiment, is to just use 1 router, placed strategically. Use a free OS X or Windows Wi-Fi scanner, and start to walk away from the router, with your laptop, and see how your RSSI (signal strength) drops (there are also free scanners for the iPhone and Android devices). Then, start shooting with the Eye-Fi Card, and see how far you can walk away from the router, while images are still coming in.

Keep us posted.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Thu May 20, 2010 8:25 pm

Thanks for the help Ziv! So, I have tried and taken back several different set ups. Fry's is not liking me right now. They did not have the wrt320n, but did have the wrt400n so I picked up 2 of them and will give them a shot tomorrow. The problem I see with these is that I am in Texas. Hot, Hot, Hot! Not to mention the thunderstorms that come out of nowhere. These events are outdoors, so I was trying to set up something that would be portable, yet withstand the elements. I have VERY limited knowledge about networking, so I am at a huge disadvantage here. I like the idea you talked about using the WDS and would like to try this set up. I just don't know that I will be capable of doing it. At this even I will only have 2 photographers and am thinking I may be able to get away with 2 routers if I placed them correctly. Will that cause to much of a bottleneck on the network?

Also have been doing some research on these

http://ubnt.com/powerstation

They are made to be used outdoors in the elements. Can you tell me if these would serve the same purpose as a router? I mean are they a router or just an access point? Or is a router & access point the same?

Thanks again for the help!

Matt
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Thu May 20, 2010 9:14 pm

Hi Matt,

Wow, I've never heard of this. Their site looks promising. 6 watts? 50km's? Sounds way too good to be true.

So I've asked my co-founder to look into it. I just can't believe their numbers...

For now, try the unit you got. Just cover it with a plastic trash bag. Plastic won't hurt range. Water will, so hopefully the plastic bag won't collect too much water if it rains.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Thu May 20, 2010 9:25 pm

Thanks ziv! If you would like, you can follow a thread that I started in there forum. Hope I'm not breaking any rules here. If so, just delete my post.

Here is the link http://ubnt.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20788
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Thu May 20, 2010 10:08 pm

Matt,

I just looked up the WRT400N. Great router but it's overkill for you. It will do simultaneous 2.4GHz and 5GHz, but the Eye-Fi cards support only 2.4GHz.

But it's like having 2 routers in 1. You could have the laptop going through the 5 band and the Eye-Fi cards through the 2.4 band.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Thu May 20, 2010 10:12 pm

Thanks Ziv. Haven't opened em up yet. Still doing some research on these ubiquity products. Just to be clear, you are saying that Efy-Fi is transportable across a WDS bridge (and this was a critical unknown), then a centrally located Bullet 2 with a couple of WDS Bullets on the fringe. That would be only a single hop, and not much speed loss.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Thu May 20, 2010 10:23 pm

Matt,

Yes, the Eye-Fi Card works on a WDS network. For example, at home, I have 2 routers on a WDS network, with different SSID's and the card can connect to any of the routers without a problem (in my case, I have 2 54GL's).

So -- just try it :-)
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:31 pm

Guys,

I'd like to post another trick, or another solution, to getting long range with Eye-Fi Cards.

You can carry a small router with you, like a CradlePoint, that supports WDS. There are other routers in the industry that are small, pocketable, and can be powered by a battery. We used to use the D-Link pocket router, but as far as I remember, it does not support WDS.

CradlePoint has routers that support WDS, and some are even battery powered. Even if you get the ones that are not battery powered, you can connect a battery to them, that would last, easily for 20 hours.

So the set-up would be:

The Eye-Fi Card is talking to the router that's in your back pack, or in your pocket. The distance from the Eye-Fi Card, to the router that's on you, is less than 1 meter, so that's brain-dead simple for the card to do

The router that's on you, is a client on a WDS network that you've created, either with off the shelf equipment running DD-WRT, or higher-end equipment. Up to you.

That's it. The card will have an easy time talking to the router that's on you, the router that's on you will talk to the other router, via WDS, and you'll get crazy long range :-)

If you're looking for a great battery to power the CradlePoint, I've had amazing luck with the Tekkeon batteries.

Thx --

Ziv.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:55 pm

Umm correct me if I'm wrong, but the cradelpoints are like $200?

Matt
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:10 pm

They start at $100. If not the CP, try another router. Just make sure that it supports WDS, and TEST IT. It's all about testing. I'm fairly certain that the cheap D-link pocket router does not support WDS.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:12 pm

and Matt, going back to my testing statement, you may not need to do any of this stuff. Like I said in my original thread, I can get upwards of 250 feet with an off the shelf router like the WRT-320N, with DD-WRT, and no external antennas. I'm sure that the Ubiquity stuff would be even better...
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:18 pm

Ok, pretty excited! Just spent a couple of hours with a ubiq networking specialist. I now have the eyefi card up and running with the bullet. Still doing some testing, but got it to work with a simple hub with the the bullet set as an access point in bridged mode. This is not a plug n play project by any means. Networking knowledge is needed. WHT for the ubiq forums said that he would post here what we did. Now I have to see what kind of range I can get and with just a single bullet.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby WHT » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:31 pm

Howdy all.....My name's Justin aka WHT in most of the wireless forums.

I got Matt up and running with his Ubiquity Bullet M2 radio and its working great.

It took about three hours (all over the phone), but we did lot of testing under different settings to make sure there were no "gotchas" lurking about.

For the most part it would have been a five minute setup. Next I'll play with WDS range extension.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby WHT » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:30 pm

ziv wrote:Wow, I've never heard of this. Their site looks promising. 6 watts? 50km's? Sounds way too good to be true.
So I've asked my co-founder to look into it. I just can't believe their numbers...

Ubiquity is *NO* different from *ALL* the other wireless manufacturers' when it comes to aspirational advertising.

Yes it will go 50 KM (31 miles), but that is at the slowest data speed and zero system operating margin (fade margin). When you start pushing the highest data rates with a robust 20 dBm fade margin, that 31 miles can shrink to under ten miles.

Speed, distance, reliability, cost...Pick three.

I've been running a 22 mile link for over a year with a pair of Bullet M5 radios and 27 dBi grid antennas. Signal was steady at -69 to -71 dBm, with a very few excursions to -73 dBm. The ice storm never last winter never bothered it. Right now its with horizontal polarization and holding at -62 dBm and 98% to 100% CCQ. All for under $350...unheard of before.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:48 pm

Yes, but you're probably doing this crazy long range with very directional units. This wouldn't work for Matt's application, unless he wants to stay in one tiny spot. A good omnidirectional antenna would be much more useful in this situation.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:51 pm

ziv wrote:Yes, but you're probably doing this crazy long range with very directional units. This wouldn't work for Matt's application, unless he wants to stay in one tiny spot. A good omnidirectional antenna would be much more useful in this situation.


I have a good one. May be a little too good as a matter of fact. We will find out tomorrow what kind of range I can get.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:54 pm

Hey Ziv, you mentioned in one of your posts about an ipod app for testing signal strenght. I have searched and cant find one. Can you point me in the right direction?
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:02 pm

I don't have a iphone so I can't give you an exact name. I found one for the android in 3 minutes, and since the android has 1/3 of the iphone apps, I assumed it exists.

Search for wifi scanner or wi-fi scanner, or wireless scanner
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby WHT » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:33 am

Matt had a unique situation in that he has a 2Wire DSL modem/wireless access point/router device that he needs to keep at home.

If he had a DSL modem and a stand alone wireless router it would have been easier because all he would have needed out on the road was a similar second wireless router, or as in his case a router and the Bullet radio.

He configures his Eye-Fi units via the 2Wire router and when he goes on the road he uses a stand alone Linksys router with a Bullet as a wireless access point.

He's up and running with a setup that is portable now after we configured his Linksys router's network settings to match his 2Wire's network settings.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:46 am

Yup, makes sense. But the aspect of shooting on-location, while being offline, isn't that unique. We've added a feature to the Eye-Fi Center, to add an SSID as "out of range", for exactly that reason. You could add any SSID to the card, click the Out of Range box, and the card will not try to connect to the Eye-Fi Server. It will simply add the SSID to the card. So you could do all your set-up at home, add several known SSID's to the card, and then go to the remote location. As long as the SSID's and WEP/WPA keys are as you configured them, while you were at home -- you will be good to go. The card will see the router, and will find the local agent/server on the network.

So is Matt all set now? :-) Thanks a lot for helping him !!!!!!!!
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:48 am

One more thing -- adding and removing SSID's, changing folders and doing stuff that is local-only, does not require the Eye-Fi Center to be online. If you wanted to change Picasa to Flickr, for example, you would need to be online for that. But if Matt decided to change his SSID's on-location, even if he's offline, he could just fire up the Eye-Fi Center, and add or delete SSID's. Just make sure to click the "Out of Range" checkbox, so that during the set-up phase, the card will not attempt to reach out to our Eye-Fi Servers...

Hope this helps.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:53 am

ziv wrote:One more thing -- adding and removing SSID's, changing folders and doing stuff that is local-only, does not require the Eye-Fi Center to be online. If you wanted to change Picasa to Flickr, for example, you would need to be online for that. But if Matt decided to change his SSID's on-location, even if he's offline, he could just fire up the Eye-Fi Center, and add or delete SSID's. Just make sure to click the "Out of Range" checkbox, so that during the set-up phase, the card will not attempt to reach out to our Eye-Fi Servers...

Hope this helps.


Ok, now I look like a realy idiot. Guess it would help if I would do some reading. I never could get the new software to work like you say, but never checked that box either. That helps alot!

Thanks,
Matt
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:02 am

Hi Matt,

If you're running into issues with the Eye-Fi Center, let us know what they are. The Eye-Fi Center was a complete redo of the Eye-Fi Manager, so it's not bug-free. If you can't get something to work, let us know about it, and we'll look into it. But I use that checkbox all the time, because in my case, I build out my set-up before I go to shoot events, and I just come up with some funky SSID like "Eye-Fi Party" or "Eye-Fi Red Carpet", and then, when I get to venue, I test everything out.

But also, in my case, I'm online either via a MiFi or via my Droid, in case I need to do anything that requires the web. I feel useless when I'm not online, so before I go to shoot events, I make sure that even if all else fails, I can get online to get tools, talk to people, etc...

To get online, from any remote location (as long as there is cell coverage), tether to the iPhone, or Android or Palm Pre Plus or use a MiFi or a CradlePoint with a USB 3G modem. Years ago, I used to use the CradlePoint. Then, I graduated to the MiFi. Today, I use my Android :-) Things just get smaller and smaller all the time, and you'll end up carrying less equipment, to get the same job done.
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:23 am

Ziv, I have looked all over the place for the box your talking about and don't see it. I have uninstalled and re installed the center and still see no box to check, and cannot do anything unless connected to the internet.

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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby berend » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:41 am

mdwaller wrote:Ziv, I have looked all over the place for the box your talking about and don't see it. I have uninstalled and re installed the center and still see no box to check, and cannot do anything unless connected to the internet.


Matt,

If you select "Other network..." from the pull-down to select networks in the "Settings" dialog, you are presented with the text box to enter the name of the network, as well as a checkbox to designate whether or not you are within range of the network. As you can see from the upper-right corner of the following screenshot, these are all available when you are offline and not connected to the Internet.

Let us know if we can be of more assistance,

Berend

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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:45 am

Thanks! Never knew that was added

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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby berend » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:53 am

mdwaller wrote:Thanks! Never knew that was added


Matt,

No problem, but both the offline access, as well as the ability to add "out of range" networks are features that have been there since day one with Eye-Fi Center.

Take care,

Berend
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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby mdwaller » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:05 pm

Wanted to clarify one thing, just in case someone is as confused as I am about the eye fi center. When moving cards from pc to pc, as I have done with all the testing, you still have to be connected to the internet to initially set the card up. Once set up, you can add a network or change local folders without the internet. So..........if you set your card up on your desktop and then take your laptop to an event and try to get your card working, it won't. Each time you change pc's with the card, you have to do initial set up with an internet connection. So, if I'm in the field with 2 cards and they both crap the bed I am still not able to set up a new card without an internet connection.
Eye Fi folks can correct me if I'm wrong. Seems to me that the new center/helper still has not addressed the issue that many wanted addressed. Why are we bound to the eye fi servers for initial set up?? I understand the whole registration process, but seems like it should be an option at a later time if needed. Am I missing something here? Maybe I need to go buy a brand new card, unistal center/helper and go thru the whole process again to make sure I'm not missing something important.

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Re: Pushing The Envelope With The Eye-Fi Card

Postby ziv » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:39 pm

Matt,

There are certain things that you can do, and certain things you can't. You cannot register a card, w/o being online. This is completely intentional. A new card gets "authorized" by our servers, to upload, and until it gets authorized, it will not upload. Think of it like your cell phone. You need to get your ESN and your SIM card authorized by your carrier.

You can do certain things while being offline. For example -- you can add/delete/change networks, and you can change folders. You cannot switch PC's. Again, the reason is -- the PC needs to be authorized by our servers, to receive images from that particular card. So it's done for security reasons, and is totally intentional, by design.

It helps to be online, even if you're on-location, as I mentioned in my earlier post, via something like a MiFi or via phone tethering...
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